Category: Health and Wellness
Is VitaminD Deficiency Common in Blind people because we don't get out much do to transportation etc? I don't mean to offend by asking this or in the way it was worded. I am asking because for the second time in two years my vitamin d is very low. Normally people may have low vitamin d and not even know it unless you ask for the specific blood test to be done. I have been asking for this because of chronic pain. Even when I raise the vitamin d count my pain remains but that's not the point here. The point is Why does my vitamin d keep getting low. I think it's because I don't go out much. So I was wondering if vitamin d deficiency was common in the blind? If it is what can we do about it?
other than deal with it, absolutely nothing. not just that, but we aren't doctors here, so you came to the wrong place if what you wanted was medical advice.
Nice sensitive answer, as usual, Chelsea.
If you don't get to go out much due to transportation issues, just go sit outside for 10 to 20 minutes in the sun as much as possible. I've read that you don't need more than 20 minutes of sun two or three times a week to get a good dose of vitamin D. Between getting some sun and taking vitamin D capsules, you should get enough.
Interesting hypothesis there and one I believe might actually have some merrit. And, I don't think a doctor is the right person to be able to answer this question. I think there's definitely something to the hypothesis that blind people do not stay outside as much as the general public and therefore might be low on vitamin D. The obvious solution is just to change your lifestyle so you spend more time outside in the sun. For my part I think mobility on your own two feet is very important and it has given me a lot of freedom and confidence. So my advice is, get out and walk more.
go outside your house more often? if transport is bad, you don't have to go anywhere, just outside and stand there for 20 minutes in sunlight.
Go outside. Sit on the porch and read or in a chair.
To some exercises while you are out there.
Women should probably take a 1 a day vitamin as well.
You should eat things that have omega 3 like fatty fish.
This is not a blind thing, but a people thing.
You might not only be low on D but other things.
Speaking of that, how do you know you are low on D?
Agreed with others here. I dont' think this is more of a problem among blind people than it is in the general public. Many, many people are vitamin D deficient, and most probably don't know it, because it's not a common blood test to have done. But even sighted people don't spend a lot of time out in the sun. They walk to their car which is usually parked in a garage or somewhere very close to their house, drive as close to their destination as possible, and go into the building. this is simply an issue of people not being out in the sun enough. Others here are right: taking a Vitamin D supplement helps, eating/drinking things that are naturally high in, or fortified with, Vitamin D, and especially spending time outside, even if you just get a chair and sit in a sunny spot.
being sensitive doesn't just mean giving people the answers they seek. sometimes they just need to hear that they cannot always control things and that if they're curious about something health-related or that's otherwise personal, finding someplace other than a site like this is the wisest option.
while she has gotten some good advice, she often seems to be looking for trouble and that's why she got a less than helpful answer from me.
I think it has nothing to do with either being blind or sighted. Lots of sighted people these days will sit inside an office, work in front of the computer, and so on. And lots of blind people are also able to go out and about, regardless of transportation and all those so cal deficulty problems. I think, being a blind is just an excuse for not able to go out, yes, we do have bad transportation, we do facing accessibility barier, but that does not give an excuse for not going out, stand or sit under the sun for 10 to 15 minutes few days a week. The best time to do it is perhaps around 7 or 8 or 9 in the morning, where the UV is not too extreme.
But, isn't this the health board? Chelsea, we are not coctors but we know how to help. This is why the health board is here right? Stop being snobby about it!
I mean, doctors.
blind people saying that we do have barriers such as transportation is not us making excuses, it's reality.
some food for thought: maybe it isn't possible for some of us to sit out in the sun because there's nowhere to sit so we just have to do what we can with what we have.
I do think this has everything to do with being blind though, as sighted people do get out much more often than us because of the opportunities they have, including being able to drive themselves to and from places. so, it really isn't near as simple as some wanna make it sound.
Oh shut up Chelsea. Getting enough sun to absorb the vitamin D from your skin
is easy, blind, sighted, whatever. If you're not dead, you can do it. If there's
nowhere to sit, stand. Though I find it hard to think that you couldn't find
somewhere to sit. Hell, go for a walk. Or, if you happen to live in some
backwater of baghdad or something, sit in front of a window and read. You still
get sun.
Exactly right, Cody. I agree with you there. I sit outside when I can and I get enough sun.
Honestly, this entire post sounds like someone looked up a few symptoms on
Web MD and decided they had the first search result. Its incredibly difficult to
get Vitamin D deficiency. That's more a concern for submarine crewmen and
people who live in the northern parts of Alaska. Not something people in the
western world really have to worry about. Unless you completely black out all
your windows and literally never leave your house.
I live in a fairly northern climate where for 3 months of the year I go to work in the dark and come home in the dark. While I don't think I have vitamin D deficiency, I DO believe the lack of sunlight does effect me emotionally, so I try (weather-dependent) to walk at lunch or take a break outside when I have a few free minutes during the day. This matters less now that we have more hours of daylight here... but I can't imagine what it would be like to live WAY up north (like the Yukon).
Kate
Yes, right. You don't even have to go outside to get sun.
Simply sit by a window.
No place to sit would be really hard to not find.
All you need to sit outside is a folding chair.
You can put that folding chair anyplace you like.
You could sit on the sidewalk on a busy street if you just unfold your chair and sit down.
My brother, who is outdoors a lot for his job, was told by his doctor after a blood test to take a Vitamin D supplement. So apparently some people don't get enough of that vitamin absorbed as easily as others. But for most people, 10 to 20 minutes of sun exposure two or three days a week is enough. There's no need to sunbathe for hours. But if you are concerned, it's simple enough to ask your doctor to do a blood test to see if you are low.
I live in Sweden, and we really don't have a lot of sunlight here, and so doctors often send people to get some fake sun to deal with the conditions that it creates.
Seriously if you're that worried try and make some friends on the internet that you can go and do stuff with outside. it will make you a happier person anyway. check meetup.com for your own interest groups.
Velvet, your brother's problem is not with the sun, its with the vitamin. You
don't get vitamin D from the sun. Light has no vitamins in it. Sunlight allows
your body to absorb the vitamin D from your skin where it is stored. However, if
you don't get enough vitamin D in your diet, there's nothing to absorb. So your
brother needed to take the pill because of his diet, not because of his access to
sunlight.
I know it's hard for some of you to believe that it's difficult to sit somewhere since that isn't a situation that directly affects you, but there are actually things in the world that exist even though they don't personally affect you.
some people's living quarters don't have a place where they can sit outside (IE a patio that is completely open to the public with no outside furniture available to sit on).
given that it is an open patio I'm talking about, where some were suggesting people just sit by a window and the problem would be solved, that suggestion falls flat because not only is the patio open to the public as already stated, but if you open your windows, so is the freedom for people to be able to look in your house.
Are you honestly saying that you've never opened your blinds Chelsea? are
you really that pathetic? what are people going to see in your house, your living
room furniture? Good lord, you act like you live at fort nox or something. And
no, you might not have an open patio, but, and I realize this may be a little
difficult for your small brain to comprehend, but you don't actually need a patio
to sit on. You can sit pretty much anywhere that isn't a parking lot or a road.
yes I'm saying that I don't open my blinds for everyone to look in as they please, especially since the only thing that classifies as a useable window is the patio door.
people, before you pop off at the mouth when you have no clue what you're talking about, I promise you'll go much further in life if you get out of your little bubbles and think about other real life situations that exist that you clearly haven't thought about and won't be bothered to consider.
It's not difficult to get d deficiancy depending on where you live. Geological factors come in to play. It's very common in everyone here to have deficiancy especially in the winter. To the point where we're tested for it at every physical. Our winters there are very few days with sun, and very brisk temeperatures with a lot of snow and ice. During the spring and summer I try to make sure I get out everyday and by november my levels are always way down again. Outside, suplimentation etc are important in these cases. Vit D is important. Depression is very common with a lack of vit d. So it becomes a cycle. If you're low and want to go nowhere you stay inside and get more issues.
and what exactly is wrong with just going outside for 10 minutes a day and just standing outside your house to take in the sun?
answer: nothing.
Again chelsea, what in the world are people going to see if you open your
blinds? are you frightened of them judging your color scheme or your
wallpaper?
Chelsea, The fact is that you don't even need to go out for long. If you live in an appartment block, thats fine, just go down to the ground floor, stand around for 5 or 10 minutes. honestly. We are not asking you to go out to get a coffee, or to go out to the public space or anything stupid. You don't even need to get naked as the matter of fact. Instead of staying in the house and whining about how hard it is to get sun, because you are blind, or not blind but stupid, why not just going out and do it. Not even need to be long, if because of your blindness, you can't do it for 15 minutes, do it for 5 minutes each day, or every alternative days. And, lastly, stop acting as you know everything and everyone else know nothing. Cause, guess what? 5 years, 10 years down the track, when you read back your post, you will realize how rediculous you are most of the time.
From what I know, low levels of Vitamin D is both blindness related, and regional. Here in my state, due to the cloud-cover, we have a higher number of people with mental health challenges, such as depression. I have a low level. I also have something called a "Light Book," because our city just doesn't get enough sun.
I don't complain about it, just take a pill, and turn on the little box, and Sarah's fine. I can also see why people would be concerned to open their windows. A lot of people have let their situations make them disrespectful. I'm thankful to have 3 locks on my door. Addicts are everywhere, and they don't give a ripe fart, if you are disabled. They see "Target," and take. Someone I knew very well did that, and it threw me. I am thankful it wasn't me, but, what of the victim? You just never know. I'm not saying to hide in your corner. Just be careful. And, if there's not enough sun coming through the clouds, get a sun lamp, and/or take a pill. It's just that simple.
Sarah/HW
If you have a door, you can open it and go outside.
You don't have to open your blinds, just open the door, step outside, shut the door.
Stand up for a few minutes, go inside.
Get a folding chair, and sit right in front of your door.
On the locks deal, that has nothing to do with being blind, or anything else, that has to do with being scared, or overly so.
Hell, you don't even need a chair. Just sit on the ground, or stand.
No one, but no one can't do this unless you are bedridden, or in prison, and even in prison in the US, you get outside time.
So no situation keeps a blind person from this but there mental block.
I've never ever seen a place with no windows but a patio door.
Do you live in like a single, or studioChelsea?
That be the only type place that would only have that setup.
I got me a sun lamp.
What's a sun lamp? For all you stupid snobs out ther, just shut up okay? She just asked a question and you reply harshly.
It's this electric box thing that creates the same kind of light that comes from the sun. You sit in front of it 15-20 a day. Comes in handy during the winter.
If you live in a place without much sun, you need extra things to give you that sun. That's not a mental block, that's called a cloudy area, that doesn't get sun often enough to make a difference. Of course, all the crap we pollute the air with helps loads. Doesn't it? Just clears the sky right up! LOL
Blessings!
Sarah/HW
This topic has me kind of curious to find out how native tribes of extreme
northern climates dealt with vitamin D.
They ate fish and a lot of it. It has Vitamin D in it.
I take fish oil.
Good thing they had fish. Guess I'll eat a lot of fish sticks from now on. LOL
Blessings,
Sarah/HW
I don't think sun lamps help with vitamin D absorption. I thought they were mainly for people who suffer from depression during the winter months. I used to have a co-worker who used one until she and her husband moved to a state with more days of sunshine. I also have a friend who suffers from winter depression, and her doctor keeps telling her to use a sun lamp. Or maybe a sun lamp isn't the same thing I'm thinking of which I think is called a light box or something like that.
you need to eat fresh fish to get vitimin d, not the processed frozen crap.
That's really interesting. I was given a sun lamp recently (I haven't yet actually used it) and while people swear by them I'm not sure exactly what they do versus what people assume they do. If they don't help stimulate vitamin D absorption, then I have no idea how else they could be expected to combat depression. You definitely don't need to be living out in the Arctic to suffer in this way. I live in the same region as Kate, and I've had multiple doctors exclaim about the amount of depression they find the farther North they travel.
There are a number of factors that can lead to a low level of Vitamin D. Modern lifestyle such as spending a lot of time indoors, wearing clothing, and using sunscreen are some of the factors that can lead to a low level of vitamin D. However, recent studies suggest that vitamin D is actually a hormone and not a vitamin as the human body makes vitamin D after absorbing UV sunlight. Therefore, if your body is not able to convert UV sunlight into vitamin D, it may be necessary to take a vitamin D supplement. You can have your vitamin D level checked through a simple blood test. If your vitamin D level remains low after starting supplementation, make sure you are supplementing with vitamin D3 and not D2 as this will make a difference . You may also wish to take and additional magnesium supplement as magnesium will help your body absorb and use vitamin D better. The Vitamin D Council website would be a good place to look for additional information on vitamin D.
Wearing clothing? Guess I oughta go out naked more often.
Not everyone is capable of standing for prolonged periods of time without support, so just stepping outside doing nothing in order to get some sunshine might be a little more difficult.
That said, though, a support cane, wheelchair or other mobility aid might help. It might be inconvenient, but if you really feel you're short on sun, that would be a way to circumnavigate that particular issue. Sighted people tend to go out more than blind people as a rule, maybe, and they'll get sun when they drive and stuff, but to say that blind people can't get enough sun because they're blind? No, I'm afraid not. there have been a lot of other suggestions here that have hit the nail on the head, as it were.
I can sort of understand not wanting to throw a patio drape wide open to let sunlight in, particularly if you are not familiar with your neighbours or are not comfortable with the thought of being stared at when you have no idea it's happening. It wouldn't necessarily stop me, but I can see why it might not be something you'd want to do, Chelsey. It might seem like a bigger deal than it actually is, mind you, particularly if you remember to draw your drapes again after a set amount of time and never forget it. Regardless of what you may or may not have to hide in your home, I can see why you might not want anyone with half a mind gawking in your window at any hour, at any time, without your knowledge. it'd be invasive. But as I say, managing how long the drape is open and what could possibly be seen while it's open might help with that. This way, you could get sunlight from the comfort of your own place without having to actually go outside.
Me, I'd just go outside. If I lived on the ground floor and had a patio of sorts, I at least wouldn't have to worry about navigating dozens of steep stairs or anything.
One thing though. I had heard at one point that UV light was absorbed most readily by the eye, and that blind people had some trouble there. I'm not sure this would qualify as "vitamin D deficiency", but it might be just a little harder for us to get a daily dose than for sighted people purely on that fact alone. I'm not wholly certain.
If a sunlamp puts out UV light, and if said UV light is processed into vitamin D, then it should conceivably work for the actual deficiency as well as for winter depression. The science would hold up anyway, as far as I know.
I'm for going outside naked. my neighbors might object though. stupid society.
this has nothing to do with me being scared, and everything to do with the area I live in. so no, I'm not being ridiculous.
maybe if you all actually had half a mind to explore the world as I've previously suggested, rather than cutting people down who don't spout your same point of view, you'd realize that one's living area is certainly something to consider when deciding to stand outside for even just a few minutes. oh, not to mention the fact that women with my figure are perceived as easy targets and are therefore more likely to find themselves in a bad situation if they stand or sit outside just doing nothing, especially given the people around here...but never mind that, that's nothing to worry about in you all's eyes.
I understand that you all don't choose to be as causcious as I do. that's your choice, a stupid choice in my opinion, but a choice you make nonetheless. however, I hope that you don't find yourselves in such an unpleasant situation, or many unpleasant situations someday. if you do though, I'm sure you'll thank me for presenting a different perspective because you'll see that what this boils down to is that I prefer being safe rather than sorry.
Us in the Pacific Northwest gets lots of rain for most the year and not that much sun. It's supposed to impact depression and stuff like that, I tend to think so.
Most people go to work before the sun is nice and bright, and often come home after it's going down. I don't think it's a blind thing. But I do enjoy the sun whenever it does come out, not just for the birds or the health but it feels nice to be out in it. Even when I lived where I had shitty transportation I had the yard so would either work in that, or just be out there smoking a cigar and having a beer with the neighbor or something.
Chelsea, I like to think I am a more well-travelled individual than most, considering that I have so far lived in 3 different countries and in various areas of safety.
There are times of the day where it is safe to go out, even in a shitty neighbourhood. It's not like anyone is asking you to go and stand outside at 3am, what would be the point?
However at 12pm, or any other time when daylight is common? no issue.
Noone is also asking you to wave around your worldly posessions as you stand outside your flat, either.
I have studied in a rather dangerous neighbourhood, but as long as I was not around after dark, there really was no issue.
I don't think the original poster has come back on here to post again. Some of us have gone pretty far off topic, but I hope the original poster has found some useful information.
it's because Chelsea is flaunting her goods by being outside because she's too sexy for her shirt that she can't go outside at noon because it's too dangerous.
I've learned that it's both related to and not related to blindness. I know it sounds odd to agree with both points, but I do. I bet there's blind people, not totally blind, that can pick up the UV Rays, quite well. But, for those of us that can't, a lot of good suggestions are here.
I just think when someone puts someone down, they shouldn't get offended when someone doesn't agree with them.
Blessings,
Sarah/HW
The original poster left the Zone over this topic.
She felt like she was threatened, not given concrete answers.
I personally know it was for different reasons, and nothing to do with this topic at all, but I'll let that go.
Read the top and you'll note her account was removed.
It was by her request.
Now, Chelsea, you are probably absolutely lovely dear, but... Sorry, just had to.
Come on, now. hahahaha.
Sun lamps are a source of light for people that are depressed from not seeing enough of it. I don't think this works at all for the totally blind.
They also don't produce the same vitamin affect as natural sun light.
People have talked about fish, this was the reason in one of my first post, I talked about a supplement, or getting enough omega 3's.
This is especially important for women.
Basicly, it comes from fatty fish, fresh, or canned, nuts, seeds, peanuts, or a fish oil supplement.
A good one a day vitamin is also a great suggestion for everyone low or not.
Threatened, really? Did I skip over the "stop asking questions or we'll kill your
mother" post? How in the world was she threatened?
Wayne, usually when an account is deleted the name of the user is still at the top of the topic, and then under that it will say "account disabled." So I think this person changed her name to account deleted. And there is a lot of useful information here even though Chelsea's first response was pretty nasty and would have pissed me off too if I was the original poster.
I want to address what I see as a couple of misconceptions here:
First, heat / UV lamps are for everyone, not just the blind. The vitamin D you get through your skin, not your eyes. Your eyes are what helps with the circadian rhythms ... it's a real thing, the human clock is slightly longer than 24 hours in a day and so the sunlight helps to reset that. But that is not vitamin D.
The second misconception: glass. Anyone who has kept birds or reptiles should know this. Glass filters out UV rays. UV rays help the body manufacture vitamin D, something birds and reptiles, and presumably dinosaurs did also, need more of than we do. A sunny window is nice, but it's not the real thing.
Also Omega 3's: Better to get Life Generations product or something similar, instead of a fish oil capsule, if you really need that. The reason is you'd have to take a lot of fish oil to get the amount of vitamin D you need. Hell, just eat a lot of fatty fish instead. Salmon including the skin, trout including the skin, tilapia, flounder. Boil the heads and make soup stock out of it. The Native people out here and up in Alaska have done that for thousands of years.
When I've baked a whole salmon, I've cleaned the head and placed it inside the cavity just to maximize this situation.
There's all kinds of ways to solve the problem, like Wayne and others have said. But take it from on who has kept both birds and reptiles: glass filters out UV rays. UV rays help your body manufacture vitamin D, plus in moderate amounts they feel fuckin good! Probably people living in Florida and similar places would beg to differ, but for those of us farther away from the equator, especially in wet clammy climates, UV rays in fact do feel really nice. That's what makes a bitterly cold, clear day more palatable than a slightly warmer but clammy, foggy day.
Anyway hope some confuzzlement has been cleared up.
Account deleted actually requested her account be removed.
This can only be done by an acmin, so the name was changed to help her.
Now, if she logs back on, we’ll understand.
• Persevere Warrior until Thursday, 02-Apr-2015 18:57:03
• Was her name before.
Her account is still there, she did it for attention and to get it removed, as of yet it hasn't been disabled. different things.
Cody, some people find people with superior attitudes like yours very threatening. So, you can keep on being the ass you are, but you won't make many friends. Unless, you prefer stuck-up snobby ritzy people as your friend. Your attitude and demeanor can be seen as condescention. I think you're very condescending, and you need to grow up. You're limiting yourself, by acting like a snob. I don't care what you do. I just feel sorry for you and your crummy way you show yourself to be.
Done with my opinion. And, I've learned a lot from this board about Vitamin-D.
Blessings!
Sarah/HW
Alright. First of all, I would like to say that this post contains a lot of useful information, and I enjoyed learning about it. Second, I would like to say that I have lived in pretty much every part of this city. I used to stay with my parents out in the suburbs where going outside was a daily thing and I actually hated staying inside because of all the things we had to do. I am blind and I get out as much as my sighted friends, public transportation or not. So even though you are blind, it does not stop you from getting outside. On the flip side though, I am currently staying in a not safe part of town, but I am staying here because access to public transportation, sidewalks, and stores is better for me. It’s me, my girlfriend, and her three year old. And if all three of us can get outside, if we can let him play around in the park down the road from our town house, if I can walk around at 2 in the morning because I forgot to go to the gym the night before and I need to get a quick lift in before I go to sleep for they night, you can surely walk outside of your house for a few minutes a day. Now mind you, in 2004, Richmond Virginia was the murder capital of the country. It a lot better now, but staying down town is by no means safe at night. Chelsi, if you are going to get robbed or taken advantage of, it’s going to happen if you go outside or not. That is not to say that it is going to happen to you surely god forbid, but what I am trying to say is, it could happen to anyone anywhere, even in the safety of your own home. Nothing is stopping anyone from kicking down your door, breaking a window, or trying to get you out of your house under false pretenses. So I guess what I am trying to say with this Ong message is, you’re sitting here telling everyone to get out, explore, and live, and you’re the one who is afraid to leave your own home for a few minutes ju9st to get some sun because of where you live and because of your figure. Well let me tell you, I know plenty of people who live in worse places than I do who have amazing boddies who get out multiple times a day and they are just fine. So unless you live on 8 mile or something, I believe this is just an excuse to put people down. Thanks
I absolutely love girls with amazing bodies coming outside to get some sun. Naked hopefully.
Smile.
careful man. you may scare chelsi into hiding even mor
I truly do not understand Chelsea's fear of venturing out of her house or apartment to catch a few rays of sunshine a day. I understand there are bad parts of town, but statistically speaking, a woman in the United States is more likely to be attacked by someone she knows in her own home than by a stranger on the street. I am all for keeping yourself safe, but some things are a bit too much.
As far as the clothing thing goes in my previous post, I think it has more to do with the types of materials used when making clothing than actually wearing clothing. There are a number of fabrics today that are made to block out the natural rays of sunlight.
Vitamin D also plays a bit of a role in the sleep wake cycle. It has an adverse relationship with melatonin. This means when levels of vitamin D are high, levels of melatonin are low and vice versa. Therefore, vitamin D may help regulate the sleep wake cycle. However, there are other vitamins and minerals that produce melatonin such as magnesium, zinc, and vitamin B12. So if you are having trouble sleeping, you might want to make sure you are either getting enough of these vitamins and minerals in your diet or through supplementation.
I don't know if she's afraid, it sounds to me like argueing for the sake of argueing. Anyhow, if someone wants to do anything to you, your age or figure doesn't matter. Anyone can get run over by a car while crossing streets, so does that mean we shouldn't do it especially because we're blind? I don't think so. I was told that I was more vulnerable of getting raped if I went out and did things because I was a blind woman. And guess what? I was molested in my house by a family member at the time. So sorry, I call that logic a load of crap.
Perhaps Chelsea, you need a weapon. Why not a weapon? You live in Texas. If you don't wish to walk around strapped, get a small club. You don't want something you have to swing high over your shoulder. Something direct, blunt and to the point, and I'm not trying to be ironic. Fears for personal safety are real, but there are answers even if polite society tends to frown upon it.
Texas is not Californica, people won't be hard on you for carrying.
Maybe she's a vampire.
Didn't you know though, now vampires don't burst in to flames... they sparcle. lol
Chelsea does have some balance/mobility issues. I don't know how far they extend and how much they impact her, but a gun would have recoil and I'm not sure how much oomph she'd get into a club swing. Some people are just in a bad position as far as self-defense goes.
Thanks for some of the clarification, Leo. I suspected I had bits of the facts wrong regarding UV light and the like.
Shepherdwolf has a valid point.
A UV / grow light would not only feel good but give someone like Chelsea the vitamin D she requires then.
Dumb question: UV light can be harmful in excess, right? People are always going on about how dangerous tanning beds are etc. So would excessive use of a sun lamp pose the same risks?
absolutely. they should not be used excessively.
but 20 mins a day won't hurt you.
Suns cheaper, healthier, and a hell of a lot more fun.
Yes, Wayne, but the sun is much scarcer, too, in a lot of places. I'd rather pay $20 or whatever for a lamp than try to catch the 20 or so minutes of direct sunlight I can get eight months of the year.
Not in Texas. Lol